Walt34:

So if I could do that at age 17, I have a hard time understanding why much older people, with more life experiences than I had then, have such a hard time doing basic household budgeting. It's subtracting expenses for the basics - food, clothing, shelter - from income. What's left over is discretionary spending. If there are more expenses than income there are only two ways out - increase income or reduce spending.

Why, oh why, is this so hard for so many people?

Because people have issues. Some come from dysfunctional homes with bad examples, alcohol and substance abuse, mental illness. Those who don't have issues and DO KNOW BETTER don't have the patience to wait and do things the right way. My mother was a financial disaster as was my first boyfriend and my ex husband. My first exposure to my financial responsibility was covered in Air Force basic training and I was 21. I managed to stay out of trouble. As it turns out I married a financial genius (who sounds a lot like you Walt) and we do ok. Not everyone is blessed with financial common sense but you knew that.

Saver101:

At what point does a business transaction become a crime?

Only when it is illegal. Morality and decency are different issues and those are definitely in question with these businesses.

 

 

dolly:

When my brother was a teenager he had a part-time job at a rental center.  He eventually quit because he couldn't stand to work in that environment anymore.  He said that they would deliver furniture and electronics to the poorest sections of town to people who didn't seem to understand that they were paying $2/week for 52 weeks for a lamp that they could have bought outright for much less.  (That's just an example)

 

re-tired:

When I was in college I lived in an apartment by myself and supported myself on $47 a week.  This included a car payment of $76, rent of $55, and a 90 mile round trip commute to school each day.  After all of that and gas, I usually had $6 left over.  (I got to eat at work and one of the cooks would always sneak me a sandwich to take home).  I did my homework at night and my apt only had 1 very bad lighting fixture.  So I rented a lamp.  $1 per week on a 4 month contract.  . The cheapest lamp I could buy at the time was around $14 even then.  And school work couldn't wait.  One day I received a phone call from the rental center to bring in the lamp.  When I went in the guy behind the counter handed me a lamp and a box of light bulbs.  They had figured out that since that was allI was renting, I was using it for studying so they (a couple of the people who worked there) fixed up a broken lamp that had been returned and gave it to me.  I cried all of the way home. 

re-tired

Oh, that is a great story!  Thank you for sharing!

I may know a person who suffered this mental illness of bipolar for years after the bussiness has gone and homeless do to situations I chose not to say my sister was homeless and very sick her car was in a ditch 4 in a half feet in head injury do to accident she had trouble account of thinss she did or the money she spent her 5th wheel is now at my parents we all took her in until she got well took her wallet keys checkbook and her car liecence gee try to fight with a 39 year old who was so strong in life with two bussiness fighting everyone every step of the way her money is back on track we all go over her account with her yes she has her check book back and credit card passport liecence maybe but she is way out of poverty thanks to her soon to be x now back on her feet she maybe get to drive again there Im debating but mom says no the rest of siblings say yes she is doing great but Im with mom on that one she was so strong for a number of years a poverty took her life almost and owning bussiness she made money boy the money came out the ears all safe now and now on disability she hass sunk deep back in depression because she thiks she is a wreck again the bipolarness took over she cannot work ever again but gee she is doing great again back to her stubburness and I won't take your crap additude she is getting along great..

why this long winded story poverty happens in all life stages just except it ,its away of life allot of those poeple cannot help it at all due to being ill or addicted to drufs they need help a hand up not out.

 

I do feel sorry for many people who have to go this route when they absolutely have no other choice. BUT in the defense of these companies.....they have definitely made a market for what they offer. The payday loan places don't borrow the money from the Federal Reserve like the banks do. They have to pay much higher rates for the money they lend so therefore, they have to charge more. Also, when you take into account that the majority of these loans are $500 or less, and the company has to pay employees, office rent and all the other expenses associated with running a business, they still don't make a great deal of profit at the end of the day.

While I am certainly not condoning these businesses, at times they are lifesavers for many people who simply have no other choice. After all, there is a certain amount of "personal responsibility" that has to come into play somewhere. I was raised by two parents that neither had alot of formal education (neither of them went to school beyond the 9th grade), BUT one thing that I was taught from an early age is to NEVER sign anything I didn't know what I was signing. I for one, have absolutely no patience for many people who make bad choices or don't bother to or is too lazy to explore all their options, and then expects everyone else to bail them out and feel sorry for them...sorry, it just doesn't happen for me.

 Sissy, thank you for sharing. It is true. Anyone can be in poverty in a second.
Babs

I've been in poverty, out of poverty, and can state this:  Every TV news channel has run stories on predatory lenders, rent-to-own centers, and paycheck advance services.  During any session of any legislature, predatory interest rates and their lobbyists make news. 

Many of these poor have their nose stuck in that TV for eighteen hours a day and think, despite the evidence, that they know more than the newscasters and are more qualified to make the decision, based on a special factor called "instant gratification".  Usually they will acknowledge, with little questioning, that this one factor motivates most of their financial decisions.  The same factor motivates the defaults which give these lenders the rationale to charge these enormous interest rates and service fees.

Some poor are stuck because of a difficult job market and are hostage to predatory employers. When unemployed, I sold at flea markets 2-3 days a week and made more money than I would have made as a hostage hash-house waitress at 2.13 an hour plus nickel-and-dime tips. 

I've turned down jobs selling $800 buck vacuum cleaners and forever-contracts on house siding.  A few of my onetime bosses have ended up in jail.  We can only fight predators and live responsibly.  Ignorance and irresponsibility are usually--not always--a lifestyle choice, and it victimizes us all.

Brandy:

Saver101:

At what point does a business transaction become a crime?

Only when it is illegal. Morality and decency are different issues and those are definitely in question with these businesses.

 

 

I graduated college in a down market- pretty much the main job opportunities were the rent-a-center places, "tote the note" car lots, payday lenders, or management training at a car rental place, and competition was stiff for the last.  My mother is a social worker and part of the reason she let me move back home for a bit after college was that I wouldn't have to take an unethical job to make ends meet.  I took a secretary job instead where it wasn't enough to live on, but it was something at least and was honest work.

While I do not agree with the *concept* of those businesses, what irks me most is when those businesses can't be bothered to use decent business practices within their own business model!  "Nonexistent payments," indeed.  Among other things like using the employer info you put down to nag/embarass/harass you for payment, sometimes in abuse of Fair Credit Reporting Act.

I do think some of these businesses make their money taking advantage of the poor and should be held more accountable but, I believe it was Pat that made the statement regarding the poor mentality, I totally believe there is such a thing. I work with a woman who lives paycheck to paycheck and will scrounge change from her desk drawer and have to trade pennies for nickels in order to get a Coke out of the machine but come payday she spends her lunch hour at WM or the dollar store buying junk. She was so proud she had saved $200.00 over the summer but blew half of it last week on a concert ticket and tshirt.  Last winter she used a payday loan to get brakes for her car.  Should the shady businesses be blamed when people handle their money in this way?

Dear All, I hope this is not off-topic, as it is off the lassst couple of postings.  Here in San Francissco, there is zoning that makes it difficult for the "big box" stores like Wal-Mart to get anywhere near the City.  This makes it impossible for those of us without cars to shop at Wal-Mart (well, even with cars, the nearest one, in Vallejo, is many miles away), Home Depot, Ikea, etc.  Without big-box stores, we all have to pay more.  The poor like me are the most affected by this.  Only online shopping works, & then unless it's Amazon or a special, there is high shipping/handling rates.  Yours in Him, Deb